924Board.org

[hausbrauen]

This forum is an enigma.

-nick I'm sure Franco got out because they were making such solid money.

Good stuff, keep it up.
_________________
Sid
S2 931
CFO Hausbrauen Motoren


'06 Sponsors of the 944 Cup and SuperCup

[-nick]

Hey OotB-
You're right, the gear would be going from advance to retard, so the dizzy just needs more advance to make up the difference. I believe that all the n/a and 79-80 turbo dizzy's use flyweights to begin with (along with vacuum) to advance the igntion timing. You may not necessarily even have to play around with adapting a VW dizzy (although, if they fit and are easy to modify...).

nick

[ESC944]

Outofthebox - dude - listen – first of all this thread was started by nick - as for the deal with the Franco - its nothing new to anyone - we have one - we could reproduce it.


Others could too – about everyone anyone if they have one can take it someplace maybe get a one off done or limited production runs.... including on other boards who have talked about reproducing them – well there is no mass market – it’s a gamble – a large investment of time and money to make something that might sell – for the Audi, VW or 924.

A basic adjustable setup - thats a lot different and very cheap to purchase or reproduce and becuase of interchange - lots of sources for those.

We did the leg work, we got permission from Franco - simple as that. Long before this thread.

As for scamming your ideas - get over yourself - we had the gear long before the idea was a twinkle in your eye.

So you want to be some savior of the masses and go out and get stuff done cheap eh? Great do it, if it is a hot seller – the masses what there are of them will flock to you. If not well as you said – cost for you to do it is cheap.

Wait - you mad cause you wanted to make it happen? Fine then do it. No one is holding your back after all you in South Africa-- lots of exploited…I mean cheap labor their.

Before you rip on someone else – for what you are suddenly intent on doing – consider that it’s not an original idea. The posting of cost -is a reference point - demonstrating that its not in high demand but would be high in cost to setup, for something that might be of interest to certain parties.

But as stated 5 hours to setup run individual pieces - the bill per hour is far greater in the USA - so that is the cost of doing business here. If you are in a country where labor is well cheap - great – that’s a different scenario - its apples to mangos or some such.

Again – Sid’s post was both informative and an inquiring about support if we should go after it – Only becuase we have one - not that its some kind of high intrest part...

From the small amount of people posting – sounds like maybe 2 would sell on here – maybe more to the VW and Audi guys who might want one – it’s a good idea if it applies and can function on a car – so could possibly be expanded outside the VAG…

But if the part doesnt simply interchange - welleach new car – means changes to the parent design – blah blah… enough about marketing and supply demand costs etc...

I for one dont see how in the USA it could be done simply and affordably for limited market appeal.

Nick – you for one always want Sid and others to compare things and all that mess – Sid did – he stated that from the basic information provided and conversations with machine shops, they want to charge a minimum of 5 hours – that assuming they can do it all on their machines and not farm any of it out.

Edit: - corrected some spelling - but its still off - dont want to seem like I am back peddling.

[OutOfTheBox]

[OutOfTheBox]

Never argue with a fool, they will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

[ESC944]

Sounds good - if you can get it done fantastic - your real advantage is the low cost of labor.

Add to it an abundance of materials - you should be able to kick out lots of stuff.

Which would be a huge help to the board members.

Like I said Get-R-Done -

You should be able to do it for a 1/3 or 1/4 or maybe even a 1/5 of the cost, that will be huge to the guy(s) who want one.

Sort out the ignition timing and you would have a solid product.

[ESC944]

Ah but where is the fun in that - if you start something - be prepared to finish it... otherwise you shouldn't bother.



Seriously need to consider your own comments - no one jumped on your bandwagon or hamstringed you to steal and idea. What is pointed out is three things:

The Franco Gear is known to work
The Franco Gear cost 320.00 according to the reciept that came with it.
A Machine shop in these parts want a minimum of 5 hours of labor...



When you think about it - they could set up the machine - make 5 of something, change it to the next piece do that one, so on and on - so it will be more than 5 hours - with having to change programs and setup between pieces - to a limited degree. Different stock for the weights, different thickness. The base has to be cut out of stock and deep enough for the other bits, and you need to source the springs when its all said and done....

You can order springs... but you cant get around cutting pieces of stock down and out of raw material - and you can't change the fact that unless you tie up more than one machine - it will take more than 5 hours. Setup, prep, change overs, etc...

The other side of it - if you could get a shop to squeeze it in around other jobs - then yea could be even cheaper - cause then atleast the machines are not just sitting - most shops in the US are busy - least the ones that could cut gears and all that -

Think about it like this - take a stock gear - now imagine the thickness - that means the a billet piece has to be cut to that size and thickness and also hollowed out - plus have the fitment points for the springs and weights.

Then you have the cover plate

Then you have the weights

Then install with springs, screws etc... so I suppose if you assemble them and work for free that keeps the cost down even more - or of course you could pay the machinest to do it - or someone else provided they are capable and willing -

Making a pulley - a round piece of stock - is not hard - adding the ribs or cutting out matterial and making sure its not out of balance, etc.. slightly harder - then their is the timing gear -- well - you need a big teethed gear to hollow out or make it from billet as described....

So not a simple process... but if labor is cheap - its not building it thats hard or expensive - its getting the parts made....

No insults intended only a wake up call - your perspective is local to your location - not to the USA. You cant realistic compare S. Africa Costs in labor etc... to the USA - you can see its cheaper - thats true - so yes - thats typical with anything made outside the USA. Thats why companies - move their operations overseas... cheap labor - they can build their own factory, or buy one, contract etc...

Seriously not trying to hold you back... but jumping on Sid - he stated the costs as quoted to us - if you doubt it then someone on here print out the pics and take general dimensions of your own gear and take it to a local machine shop and get a quote - we didnt shop around that much - no point - got a basic cost and posted it for informational purposes -

The thing is OutoftheBox - as Nick and others have pointed out - the idea is here is some information we got when we looked into it.

Not here is the cost buy from us.

That was followed with - a basic "if their was interest and support" - it could be pursued - thats not a forsale post - thats Sid saying we arent really intersted in making this - but could go after it if enough people wanted one.

If we or anyone goes that route of course you then try to lock down an exact cost

- It could cost more or it could cost less -

Yet the minimum amount of time to make it - well I dont see how a run of 5 could be done for less than 5 hours and likely would be longer - most shops arent going to just drop everything, or even pass up larger orders to do some piddly job. The money for them is in big jobs, its also more effective to set up a machine and let it run and make a 100 or 1000 of something and not have to worry about changes, different setups or materials, etc... thats man hours not just machine hours.

Speaking from experience - costs to machine something never seem to be what you thought they would be - and rare is it when a shop comes in under their estimate - their are a few - but their arent many - the want the minimum or more when they charge you...

So dont take offense or get bent or any such - just consider a different point of view that is based on the economy in the USA and the cost of getting something done here, not there.

[hausbrauen]

OOTB...While you are at it why not make some superchargers, strut braces, pistons, custom wheels, stroker kits, radiators, intercoolers, body kits, gauge pods, spoilers, clutch kits, roll cages and all the rest of the things we have going? Do it all in less than a year and do it NOT FOR PROFIT. You should have no problem making all this happen for peanuts relative to our costs so...

GetRDone already.

As stated earlier good luck with all you aspire to accomplish. Hope it all works out so we can just build our GTR's for a fraction of the cost and be done with it.

Meanwhile we won't hold our breathe and we will just keep doing what we do just in csae you fall on your face.
_________________
Sid
S2 931
CFO Hausbrauen Motoren


'06 Sponsors of the 944 Cup and SuperCup

[daveo]

i have to agree with Sid & ESC on this one 100%.
cost for one of parts is not cheap, in the UK i had a aluminium inlet manifold made for the 24 so i could fit the bike carbs it cost £195.00 thats about $341.00 US, & I THINK THIS WAS CHEEP for the job
I am having made a plenum chamber out af aluminium with one or two mods for the SC, & its costing £380.00 thats $665.00 US, THIS IS NOT INCLUDING V.A.T. at 17.5%(TAX)
so $500. US sounds about the right ball park figure,
I am in business & i thought it was normal to make a profit or have i got that wrong. Its my time, my money, my risk, so I expect to get a little out of it.
I have been reading all the posts on this & have to say that some people need to grow up, if you are one of the boys out there making things & pushing our little 924's forward, for me, keep on doing it, keep on pushing don't take the sh-t from the people that just post & probably have a standard car or they may have gone wild & put a Audi throttle body on it.
so seq,cbass,ESC,SID & all the boys making things, keep on doing it

Daveo

[ESC944]

DAVEO - I want a picture of you smiling your @rse off looking in a mirror or some such with the SC in your sweat palms - hahahaha and the other bits -- thanks for the support!

Give me a ring when you get a minute - scratch that I will give ya one -

[OutOfTheBox]

[ESC944]

[morghen]

500$ is one month salary in Romania ! and in any eastern european country.

hmm...yes if you go to a shop give the guy the schematics and material he will work 5-6 hours and will ask a shit load of money......but i tought you guys Hausbrauen had your own numerical machines and stuff....

I dont want to be rude but i feel that you overpriced or overestimated the costs of this thing.

That being said....do you think you could get it done cheaper? or you dont have the machines necesary for this?

Again...NOT trying to make you guys look bad or anything...we are men...talking....can you do it cheaper? yes/no ?
_________________
Supercharger and EFI kits
https://www.the924.com

[OutOfTheBox]

[bass gt]

Guy's,

I think you are all missing a simple, but important point here. If ESC and Sid want to make the Franco type gear, or any other part for that matter, and charge $500, or $5000 that's their call. I don't think they do this for charity. However, you have the option to say, " no thanks", and leave it there. It's a bit like TV. If you don't like the programme, turn it off.
I find it hard to believe that we have a 6 page thread which has basically decended into a bun fight over the ethics of charging for parts. If you want it cheap, make it yourself.
Next time you go into a restaurant, ask them to justify their prices. Steak's not that expensive at the supermarket is it??

Steve