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Maybe924
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 412
Location: New London, CT
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 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: The price debate or will 931s ever appreciate? |
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I happened to stumble on a thread last night that dealt with the pricing of 924s and what the future might hold. Essentially the thread started with a 931 owner suggesting that these cars (the turbos) might very well be worth something in the future. This is something I've considered myself both before buying and now owning a 924 Turbo S2. It certainly seems reasonable that the 924 Turbo may indeed find itself increasing in value over the next 10-15 years. Unfortunately it seemed that the original thread was fraught with a few 924 n/a owners determined to lump the 2 very cars values together and "piss in the 931 owners cornflakes", so to speak. Since I can very rarely leave well enough alone I thought I'd add my 2 cents without dredging up an old thread.
My thoughts were this.
Firstly as soon as an individual attempts to lump the values of the 924 and the 931 together as one singular and measurable unit I think its safe to say that their argument is essentially invalidated.
Take these 3 well documented and observable comparisons.
1. The early Turbo 911s fetch at least 200% premium over there N/A counterparts.
2. 914-6s enjoy upwards of a 3 fold premium over their 4 cylinder stable mates (which BTW have even managed to appreciate over the past 10 years quite nicely).
3. The 944 Turbo and evenmoreso the Turbo S see a significantly higher price, often 3 to 4 times more than, 944 NAs, which suffer from very depressed prices.
I think its very safe to say that the 931 is and will continue to be looked at as the much more desirable car over the 924. Many 931 owners here were never even interested in a 924 n/a and compared only the 951 or 968 as an alternative purchase. This will bear out in the market in the coming years, undoubtedly.
Another important aspect to look at when determining future value is rarity. Considering only somewhere around 13,000 924 Turbos were ever produced around the world the market will have a hard time locating a worthy car. Even now nice 931s are hard to come by. Imagine the difficulty you will have when they become the next Porsche to reach classic status.
Future demand is of course the 1 factor that is tough to predict. While its true that the 924 N/A has a reputation as underpowered (most certainly the case in the US market), the 924 Turbo is considered to be a solid Porsche performer, easy to increase horsepower and the best of the breed. With that the day may soon come when the ocean of 911s becomes a bit tired and the aging teens of the 70s start longing for the rarity that can only be found in a 931.
I apoligize for seeming to malign the 924 N/A but please, for the purpose of price debates, do not lump the 2 cars together since their respective values are and will become even more disconnected.
BTW and just for the record I personally believe that N/As may also see an appreciation in pricing over the next 10 to 15 years, but I'm certain it won't be nearly as pronounced as for the 931. |
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Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9491
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Original stock cars, regardless of the make, usually are worth more than ones that have been modified.
_________________
White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: Re: The price debate or will 931s ever appreciate? |
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[quote="Maybe924"]
Firstly as soon as an individual attempts to lump the values of the 924 and the 931 together as one singular and measurable unit I think its safe to say that their argument is essentially invalidated.
Take these 3 well documented and observable comparisons.
1. The early Turbo 911s fetch at least 200% premium over there N/A counterparts.
Talk about invalid!! You can't compare a 911 NA and a 924 NA on the same scale.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
2. 914-6s enjoy upwards of a 3 fold premium over their 4 cylinder stable mates (which BTW have even managed to appreciate over the past 10 years quite nicely). |
That fluctuates with what county you are in and what state. Across the board it's still a pretty flat line. Some very nice and well kept cars sell for decent money but the money it takes to keep a car pristine for that long far outweighs any actual reason for doing it.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
3. The 944 Turbo and evenmoreso the Turbo S see a significantly higher price, often 3 to 4 times more than, 944 NAs, which suffer from very depressed prices. |
Where did you find that info? A well sorted 944 against a 951 will only lose a couple of thousand and an S will only gain a couple of more thousand over the 951. 4 times higher? In some states you suggest a 944 { no matter the make} sells for $20,000? <<< That's crazy.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
I think its very safe to say that the 931 is and will continue to be looked at as the much more desirable car over the 924. Many 931 owners here were never even interested in a 924 n/a and compared only the 951 or 968 as an alternative purchase. This will bear out in the market in the coming years, undoubtedly. |
I don't mean to rain on your parade but the 924 and the 931's are in the exact same boat. A well sorted 924 is a better deal that a 931 that hasn't been looked after {for the same money}. A 931 with a host of new parts, rebuilt turbo, great suspension will only fetch a little more than a 924 in the same condition. {Show me where there's a big difference}
People will always try to sell their car for big bucks and if it's a 924 or 931 they will hold onto it for a long time with a high price.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
Another important aspect to look at when determining future value is rarity. Considering only somewhere around 13,000 924 Turbos were ever produced around the world the market will have a hard time locating a worthy car. Even now nice 931s are hard to come by. Imagine the difficulty you will have when they become the next Porsche to reach classic status. |
Again you're assuming the cars will reach some sort of collector status. I doubt that will happen. If it was going to happen it should be happening now before the cars all rust out, need a crap load of body work, suspension work, engine work, a rebuilt transmission, a new interior etc.
The cars are on their way to falling apart, they aren't sporty enough to have people spend $4, 000to buy and $5,000-$7,000 to restore.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
Future demand is of course the 1 factor that is tough to predict. While its true that the 924 N/A has a reputation as underpowered (most certainly the case in the US market), the 924 Turbo is considered to be a solid Porsche performer, easy to increase horsepower and the best of the breed. With that the day may soon come when the ocean of 911s becomes a bit tired and the aging teens of the 70s start longing for the rarity that can only be found in a 931. |
The 931 is still slow and the turbo lag is well known, upping the HP will only help slightly. Are you on an infomercial with the last 1/2 of that paragraph? Never will people turn their backs on a 911 for a 931.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
I apoligize for seeming to malign the 924 N/A but please, for the purpose of price debates, do not lump the 2 cars together since their respective values are and will become even more disconnected. |
In your eyes, you want to separate the two. In a rational persons eyes, the only couple of differences in the cars is a turbo and an interference engine, both of which can be very costly if a problem should occur.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
BTW and just for the record I personally believe that N/As may also see an appreciation in pricing over the next 10 to 15 years, but I'm certain it won't be nearly as pronounced as for the 931. |
The turbos may see a slight increase over time and so might the N/A's but a well kept 924 will sell for more than a beaten 931 any day and if the prices are that close together, then save the mental effort of nitpicking and lump the two together.
If having your car in the same field of vision as the 924 bothers you, then you must barely like your car because they are very similar. |
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Maybe924
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 412
Location: New London, CT
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'll answer a few of those criticisms Neil.
I'm not comparing a 924 N/A directly to a 911 N/A. I'm just illustrating the point that Turbo charged Porsches tend to be priced much higher than their N/A counterparts. Hard to argue with this fact.
Concerning the 944s... not sure where you're getting your pricing from but a decent 944 N/A goes for around $2500, a decent 944 Turbo goes for around $7500 and a very nice Turbo S can easily see the other side of 10K. I don't understand where you get $20,000 from, but I'm assuming your 944 N/A price is a bit inflated.
There are more differences between a 931 and a 924 N/A than just the engine and the turbo but even aside from that I happen to consider a cars engine a rather big part of its whole. If they were so close to being the same I think there would be a good number of N/A folks upping their rigs to turbo spec.
So if 2 924s of equal condition are sold, one being a 924 N/A and one being a 931 and the 924 N/A sells for $1500 and the 931 sells for $3000 this does not constitute a difference in pricing??? It seems rather academic to me that a 931 is worth more than a 924 N/A. Furthermore if there were about 107,000 more 924 N/As produced than 931s I'm pretty darn certain that the law of supply and demand is gonna fall heavily in favor of the 931 gaining much more value over the 924 N/As.
Grouping them together when discussing future pricing borders on useless. Having said that, whether either car will be in demand in the future is definately uncertain but the 931 does have some traits that might help it gain cult classic status.
Lastly you are wrong about me not liking 924 N/As, I think the Euro versions are darn great cars and very much worthy brothers to the 931s, however the US spec 924 N/As were not good for the brand and I've always thought releasing a 95hp version was just ugly and forever marred the car's image in the US. |
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe924 wrote: | | The price debate or will 931s ever appreciate? |
I think they will, yes. However, perhaps a more relevant question might be; By how much will the value/price of a 924 Turbo (a.k.a. 931) in <a given condition> appreciate over <a given number of years>?
Also, per Paul's comment, originality and condition is all-important, in my humble opinion. There are also some other factors such as provenance... a full service history would definitely increase the value, obviously, as would the original or possibly subsequent owners being a famous person, for example a racing driver, a movie/tv star, a sporting star, etc...
I'd imagine a 924 Turbo that was originally delivered to, say, Walter Röhrl and had no or perhaps one subsequent owner and a full service history beginning at the Porsche factory might be worth a gold coin or two more than, say, my car  Of course, that's fantasy. But you see what I'm getting at; That beater you bought for $500 is never going to be worth anything, except as parts.
But Porsches (sports cars in general, really) are strange, emotive things. As an example, I've seen replica 911 RSR's sell for decent money even though, in purist terms, they're completely "fake". I suspect this is because originals simply aren't available, or at least not available at a price that anyone less than Bill Gates can afford. So (purely hypothetical, but...), I reckon if you took a ratty 924 Turbo and created a faithful replica of, say, a 924 Carrera GT (maybe even slightly improved over the original in some areas), it would be worth a goodly amount more than the average-condition 924 Turbos you see in the local trading rag (or on this site, even!). Of course, you fall into the trap of never getting back out of it what you spent on it. But I'm sure the person you sell it to would appreciate that he now has a "924 Turbo" that is worth some amount more than his neighbours 924 Turbo... and one that may well still appreciate.
All that aside, as a personal opinion, I'd be willing pay a reasonable amount more than most 924 Turbos are currently fetching for nice, clean original example, especially if it had a full service history. And I reckon what I consider "a reasonable amount more" might increase over time as the 924 Turbo of my dreams gets rarer...
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'80 924 Turbo |
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9xx
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 627
Location: Jarvenpaa, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think the prices for 924's are going up in the european market. Prices are varying a lot in different countries and you can get a bit worn out example for a quite low sum of money. But if you are looking for a really nice one, then it is not cheap any more. And what is the situation in 2020? I'm sure an original 924 with known history is going to collectable and expensive. Maybe not 911-expensive but still.
I have noticed an interesting thing: When I had my 944's, no one was interested in them. Just cars among the others.
Now that I have 924, there has been a lot of conversations with unknown people who just start to talk to me in gas station etc.
One customer told me how he got a chance to drive a new 928 S in early 1980's. He was still exited about it after +20 years and also interested in 924's. In rehearsals my team mates asked me questions about my car and these guys are the ones who generally say the 924 is not a proper Porsche. They never noticed my 944's...
So it seems many people are actually pretty interested in 924's (although they might not admit it right away). 
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Mikko
All gone: 931 '82 Alpine White, original option "220" G31 with LSD + 3 x 944 |
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Nobbi
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 1398
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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From my point of view,there is a diffrent generation growing up that dont know the 924. My car and i getting more attention every year.I am cruising arround my home town since almost 20 years with my 924 and the older just smile a bit, but there kids stop me on the street and want to take a closer look.Most of them think in the first place ohh,a ferrari....
At porsche meetings more and more people look to a 924 because there are no news on the 911.Everystory is told about them and everybody knowes everything. Prices? They are going slowly up, because its getting harder to find a 924 at your local wrecker.(It s about 5 years ago that i last seen a 924 (totaly-stripped)).
Now is the time to buy a 924 Na or turbo in well kept condition.If you look at it as an investment.I think the prices will double within 10 years.
At least here in germany.
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe924 wrote: | I'll answer a few of those criticisms Neil.
I'm not comparing a 924 N/A directly to a 911 N/A. I'm just illustrating the point that Turbo charged Porsches tend to be priced much higher than their N/A counterparts. Hard to argue with this fact.
Concerning the 944s... not sure where you're getting your pricing from but a decent 944 N/A goes for around $2500, a decent 944 Turbo goes for around $7500 and a very nice Turbo S can easily see the other side of 10K. I don't understand where you get $20,000 from, but I'm assuming your 944 N/A price is a bit inflated.
There are more differences between a 931 and a 924 N/A than just the engine and the turbo but even aside from that I happen to consider a cars engine a rather big part of its whole. If they were so close to being the same I think there would be a good number of N/A folks upping their rigs to turbo spec.
So if 2 924s of equal condition are sold, one being a 924 N/A and one being a 931 and the 924 N/A sells for $1500 and the 931 sells for $3000 this does not constitute a difference in pricing??? It seems rather academic to me that a 931 is worth more than a 924 N/A. Furthermore if there were about 107,000 more 924 N/As produced than 931s I'm pretty darn certain that the law of supply and demand is gonna fall heavily in favor of the 931 gaining much more value over the 924 N/As.
Grouping them together when discussing future pricing borders on useless. Having said that, whether either car will be in demand in the future is definately uncertain but the 931 does have some traits that might help it gain cult classic status.
Lastly you are wrong about me not liking 924 N/As, I think the Euro versions are darn great cars and very much worthy brothers to the 931s, however the US spec 924 N/As were not good for the brand and I've always thought releasing a 95hp version was just ugly and forever marred the car's image in the US. |
I didn't say you were comparing the 924 to the 911 NA, I said you were using the same scale.
You must be in a low laying area, a decent 944 without work needed and a good appearance will sell for a lot more than $2,500 in most states. A good 924 can sell for $2,500 easily.
Are you saying a 944 is worth $2,500 and a turbo 944 is worth $5,000 more? That's retarded.
So from my country wide numbers a 4x jump from say an '87 944 in good sort {$4,500} to a 944 S would be $18,000. I wouldn't pay over $10,000 for any of these older cars. And I doubt any other person would unless they were snowballed and had no idea of what they were buying.
Name the other big differences other than the turbo and interference engine. P.S. the cost of rebuilding the 931 engine is pretty much always more than the car is worth.
Have you read the threads and answers regarding NA's being turned into turbo cars? Read up and you'll see why people don't.
| Maybe924 wrote: |
So if 2 924s of equal condition are sold, one being a 924 N/A and one being a 931 and the 924 N/A sells for $1500 and the 931 sells for $3000 this does not constitute a difference in pricing??? It seems rather academic to me that a 931 is worth more than a 924 N/A. Furthermore if there were about 107,000 more 924 N/As produced than 931s I'm pretty darn certain that the law of supply and demand is gonna fall heavily in favor of the 931 gaining much more value over the 924 N/As.
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Where did you get the $1,500 and $3,000 numbers from? Did you pull them out of the air?
What I said was ""A well sorted 924 is a better deal that a 931 that hasn't been looked after {for the same money}""
If you're going to respond at least read the post a couple of times to make sure you understand what is being said.
Sure if there is a 70,000 mile 924 and 931 both in great shape with the same amount of flaws and pluses, then a 931 should fetch more money but it wouldn't be more than $1,000.
"Cult status"? For a car nearing 30 years old and always in need of work? I doubt it. |
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Maybe924
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 412
Location: New London, CT
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Look its a simple point I'm making here Neil... 931s in general sell for more than 924 N/As. You're clouding it with a bunch of pissy arguments over semantics and "he said, she said" BS. So I'll say again... if the 2 cars are of equal condition then the 931 may sell for 1.5 times, 2 times or even 3 times as much, the actual price difference will vary and will be influenced greatly by location, but the fact is, the 931 will have a higher price. And in consideration of overall units available the 931 will always be significantly rarer which has a direct impact on its future price. Overtime 931 vs 924 prices will have greater and greater variance and lumping the 2 together in terms of price will be more and more incorrect.
Last edited by Maybe924 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2818
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Hm, look at the prices in germany. Its not a good season for selling sports cars. But still, they are climbing.
mobile.de
924 turbo from 4116$ for the cheapest one, up to 21 315$ for the most expensive, this is standard turbo cars.
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1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/ |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe924 wrote: | | Look its a simple point I'm making here Neil... 931s in general sell for more than 924 N/As. You're clouding it with a bunch of pissy arguments over semantics and "he said, she said" BS. So I'll say again... if the 2 cars are of equal condition then the 931 may sell for 1.5 times, 2 times or even 3 times as much, the actual price difference will vary and will be influenced greatly by location, but the fact is, the 931 will have a higher price. And in consideration of overall units available the 931 will always be significantly rarer which has a direct impact on its future price. Overtime 931 vs 924 prices will have greater and greater variance and lumping the 2 together in terms of price will be more and more incorrect. |
You weren't understanding my points and pulling figures out of the air.
I just clarified.
There's now way in hell a 931 in the same shape as a 924 will sell for 3 times the price. You're nuts.
Yes {as I said before} a 931 will sell for more than a 924 but only for a few hundred dollars more, if both cars are in the same shape.
You can hold onto your dreams for as long as you want but don't try to gloss over the facts. These cars are not desirable to the public let alone collectors. The values will rise and fall but never will they skyrocket.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but don't take it so bad. |
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Maybe924
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 412
Location: New London, CT
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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I betcha there was a fella just like yourself saying the same thing about 914s 10 years ago.  As a 924 owner its strange that you think they are so unlikable and unworthy of any classic status, of course that Carrera GT kit would be a whole lot cooler with 210 horses under the hood... so I can understand where the chip on your shoudler might have sprung from. 
As far as my "hanging on to dreams"... I'm only speculating here hoss. Whether the car actually appreciates or not will have very little impact on my financial future so really it won't be a big deal if they don't. However IMO they will appreciate. How much is entirely up for debate and despite your inference that I think prices will "skyrocket" which I've never suggested, I do think there may be some modest appreciation. |
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Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9491
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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New Porsche prices in the US may skyrocket due to the exchange rate of euros and dollars. They started out equal but today a dollar is only worth 0.68 Euros.
This will cause used Porsche prices and parts to also rise.
http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/5y?usdeur=x
_________________
White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe924 wrote: | I betcha there was a fella just like yourself saying the same thing about 914s 10 years ago. As a 924 owner its strange that you think they are so unlikable and unworthy of any classic status, of course that Carrera GT kit would be a whole lot cooler with 210 horses under the hood... so I can understand where the chip on your shoudler might have sprung from.
As far as my "hanging on to dreams"... I'm only speculating here hoss. Whether the car actually appreciates or not will have very little impact on my financial future so really it won't be a big deal if they don't. However IMO they will appreciate. How much is entirely up for debate and despite your inference that I think prices will "skyrocket" which I've never suggested, I do think there may be some modest appreciation. |
Laugh if you want but the CGT body panels will add more to the price of this car than any appreciation in nationwide prices. |
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11733
Location: PacNW
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: |
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And hopefully, carefully modified ones might go up as well, not just dead originals. . .
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- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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