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chrisvs
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 25
Location: North Bay, Ontario
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 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: Introduction and Gearbox Question- Updates!! |
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Hello everyone
New member here from up in Canada. I have just bought a 1978 924 that has a bit of family history. The car belonged to my father-in-law up until 13 years ago, but he sold it to his friend. I always loved this car, and it is in immaculate condition, so when it came up for sale a few days ago, I bought it. Fortunately my fathers friend knew how much I loved the car so he gave me a fantastic deal on it.
It truly is in great shape, with under 60,000 original km's on it, and having been garage kept as a toy all its life, it is a great all original example.
It does have a problem though, it is stuck in first gear. I am suspecting something has bound or bent in the shift linkage.The clutch is fine, and it drove normally right up until the problem occured. Now, you can not get it out of first gear, even pulling with 2 hands on the stick. I have looked around on the forum for similar problems, but haven't had any luck finding any info. It is the 4 speed gearbox.
Anybody have any ideas where to begin looking? I will be pulling it out of storage to another garage with a hoist to begin tracing the problem. I will get more pics for everyone then, and keep you all posted!
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1978 924 4-spd
Last edited by chrisvs on Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Probably an issue with a shift fork, internal to the transaxle. Probably a good moment to replace it with the later 5-speed version (grab one from a 81/82 924 along with the shift linkage)
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Agree with above...the four speed is really not worth put any money or effort into, unless you are absolutely 100% insistent on keeping the car all original.
The challenge will be finding a suitable 5-speed. You will need to find someone who is parting a 1980, 1981, or 1982 normally aspirated 924. Those are the ONLY years that will provide an essentially bolt-in replacement. You can NOT (easily) use the 5-speed from any of the 924 Turbo models, nor the later 2.5L 944 / 924S gearboxes, because these all have a larger input shaft.
As above, the 80-82 NA gearbox should bolt right up to the mounts, half shafts, and torque tube currently in the car, but you will also need to include the shift rod as well as the linkage that connects the rod to the shift selector at the trans, because these are different between the 4- and 5-speeds. The shift lever itself should be fine, but now would also be an opportune time to inspect the lever's pivot pin for wear (a very common problem), replace the pivot pin bushings, and replace the ball-cup socket that mounts to the torque tube.
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erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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chrisvs
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 25
Location: North Bay, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input gents. Hopefully it is something simpler than that. My Father-in-law mentioned that he had a problem shifting into 1st when he first bought the car (used) 17 years ago, there was a slight bend in the shifter rod. the rod was straightened out, and was fine from then on. He is wondering if it might be bent again. I guess we will find out soon enough. Looks like we will be moving it later on this week.
I have thought about swapping in the 5 speed box, but am not sure. I might want to keep it all original as it is in such good shape. I have looked at some kijiji listings, and can only find 1977-78 parts cars in the $500-750 range, of course all with 4 speeds.
Anybody have any experience or information about tearing apart the 4 speed? I might give it a go, as I have nothing to loose by doing it to see if I can find the problem.
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1978 924 4-spd |
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chrisvs
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 25
Location: North Bay, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I found my shift problem.....
Thankfully, the tranny can stay in the car. Now I just need to find a shifter arm. Anybody have any ideas? I am going to try the local wrecking yards. Auto Atlanta seems to have one for $211.00 which I could also swallow if I had too. Does anybody have a spare they would like to part with for some cash?
A few other pictures of the her.
After charging the battery, she started right up. I need to run the old fuel out of her, then I think a fuel filter change will be in order. The brakes have some build up on them as well from sitting, but that is not to hard to take care of as well. Did I mention how happy I am that I don't have to pull the tranny?? 
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1978 924 4-spd |
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leadfoot
Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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go get it welded...
stu
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1981 ROW 924 Turbo -
carbon fiber GT mish mash
LS1 conversion in progress... |
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chrisvs
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 25
Location: North Bay, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Stu, I thought of that as well, after I posted this. I am going to find out today if it is weldable.
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1978 924 4-spd |
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chrisvs
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 25
Location: North Bay, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Stu, I thought of that as well, after I posted this. I am going to find out today if it is weldable.
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1978 924 4-spd |
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Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9491
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Or replace that mess with a short shift kit.
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White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
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chrisvs
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 25
Location: North Bay, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Paul, that is a good idea. I did end up ordering one from Porsche, as the price wasn't too crazy, and I was having a hard time sourcing one from a wrecking yard. Porsche only showed one in stock for all of North America, so if something goes wrong with the delivery of it, a short stift kit would be a good backup plan. Do you have a link to one of the shift kits?
A few welders had looked at welding the broken arm, but none of them were very confident that the repar would be strong enough.
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1978 924 4-spd |
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v8carreragts
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Tucson, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You can NOT (easily) use the 5-speed from any of the 924 Turbo models, nor the later 2.5L 944 / 924S gearboxes, because these all have a larger input shaft.
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Not true. All you need is to swap transaxles and the torque tube and use a Borg Warner #271203. This disc is 215mm in diameter and has the 1" x 23 spline for the late torque tube. I used this disc in my last 924 for over 45000 miles along with t transaxle and torque tube from a 1984 944.
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84 944--924 Carrera GTS clone w/520HP Chevy 302 V8--RUNNING!
2015 AUDI Q7
2013 Dodge Charger R/T AWD HEMI
2013 Chevy Cruze |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| v8carreragts wrote: | | Quote: | You can NOT (easily) ...
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Not true.... |
Pete, with all due respect, I have to disagree with you.
Can the swap be done? Of course. Is it easy? I suppose that's a matter of opinion, but I would not rate the conversion you suggest as an easy job by any measure.
In my humble opinion, the torque tube swap is not an easy swap at all, primarily because it requires that one completely remove the torsion carrier from the chassis. If the two large bolts at the main fastening points of the torsion carrier (where they attach to the chassis) have fused to the aluminum sleeves in the rubber bushings, it may as well be an impossibility, unless one is willing to cut or otherwise mangle the chassis attachment points.
Keep in mind, you have to remove the torsion carrier from both the donor car and the recipient, meaning that you have to do the job twice. Given the northern clime and proclivity of northern municipalities to use salt in the winter, it is highly likely that the OPer will encounter significant difficulty removing the torsion carrier of one or both cars. Of the cars I have personally parted up here, on 50% of them, the torsion carriers have been impossible to remove without significant damage to the chassis.
While we're on the topic, it would also be prudent to point out that if one chooses to attempt to install the G31 version of the 5-speed sourced from a 1979 or 1980 931, the torsion carrier must not only be removed (in order to access the torque tube), but it must also be swapped, adding to the complexity and difficulty of the conversion. And now you have to take into consideration early (pre-79) vs. late (post-79) spring plates (i.e. non-adjustable vs. adjustable), sway bar mounts, etc. Torsion carrier swaps require removal or swappage of the trailing arms and whole host of related domino effects. Again, in my opinion, not trivial or easy.
Here's a simple rubric to help clarify the parts required and difficulty involved:- Audi 4-speed to NA Audi 5-speed: source replacement parts from a 1980-1982 924 NA; get the trans, shift rod, linkage at the gearbox; remove old trans and shift rod, install replacement trans and shift rod.
- Audi 4-speed to NA snailshell 5-speed: source replacement parts from a 1979 NA; get the trans, torque tube, torsion carrier, shift rod, guide tube, shift lever; remove trans, remove torsion carrier, remove torque tube, etc. and install new parts (assuming you can get the torsion carrier out).
- Audi 4-speed to 931 snailshell 5-speed (a.k.a. G31): source replacement parts from a 1979-1980 US-spec 931, or a 1979-1984 ROW 931; get the trans, torque tube, torsion carrier, shift rod, guide tube, shift lever, and a Bronco II clutch disk; remove trans, remove torsion carrier, remove torque tube, remove clutch disc, etc. and install new parts (again, asuuming you can get the torsion carrier out).
- Audi 4-speed to 931/924S/944 Audi 5-speed: source replacement parts from a 1981-1982 US-spec 931, 1987-88 924S, or essentially any 944*; get the trans, torque tube, shift rod, shift lever, and a Bronco II clutch disk; remove trans, remove torsion carrier, remove torque tube, install new clutch disk, install replacement torque tube, install old torsion carrier, install trans, etc. (once again, assuming you can get the torsion carrier out);
*While you're at it, note that the gearing ratios in virtually all of the 931, 924S, and 944 variants will be way too tall for an early 924 with only 95BHP. In my opinion, while these conversions are technically possible, they are neither easy nor prudent; further, the snailshell gearboxes are hardly worth the effort due to the extremely high likelihood that they will require refurbishment that will cost more than most pre-79 924s sell for.
I hope this clarifies why I feel that for most users likely to encounter this thread, the most cost effective, easiest, and best-matched conversion is to source an Audi gearbox from a 1980-1982 NA.
Now, having said all of that, I am retrofitting my 78 NA (D-Prod Tribute) car with a proper G31, including full conversion to hydraulic clutch. So yes, it can be done. Easy? Not so much.
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erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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!tom
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1941
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| ideola wrote: |
- Audi 4-speed to 931 snailshell 5-speed (a.k.a. G31): source replacement parts from a 1979-1980 US-spec 931, or a 1979-1984 ROW 931; get the trans, torque tube, torsion carrier, shift rod, guide tube, shift lever, and a Bronco II clutch disk; remove trans, remove torsion carrier, remove torque tube, remove clutch disc, etc. and install new parts (again, asuuming you can get the torsion carrier out).
- Audi 4-speed to 931/924S/944 Audi 5-speed: source replacement parts from a 1981-1982 US-spec 931, 1987-88 924S, or essentially any 944*; get the trans, torque tube, shift rod, shift lever, and a Bronco II clutch disk; remove trans, remove torsion carrier, remove torque tube, install new clutch disk, install replacement torque tube, install old torsion carrier, install trans, etc. (once again, assuming you can get the torsion carrier out);
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Don't forget, these options require converting from cable to hydraulic clutch as well.
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78 924 NA
5-lug |
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chrisvs
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 25
Location: North Bay, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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So, for clarity then, would a short shift kit for a 924S/944 bolt in to a 924 with a 4speed?
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1978 924 4-spd |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| !tom wrote: | | ideola wrote: |
- Audi 4-speed to 931 snailshell 5-speed (a.k.a. G31): source replacement parts from a 1979-1980 US-spec 931, or a 1979-1984 ROW 931; get the trans, torque tube, torsion carrier, shift rod, guide tube, shift lever, and a Bronco II clutch disk; remove trans, remove torsion carrier, remove torque tube, remove clutch disc, etc. and install new parts (again, asuuming you can get the torsion carrier out).
- Audi 4-speed to 931/924S/944 Audi 5-speed: source replacement parts from a 1981-1982 US-spec 931, 1987-88 924S, or essentially any 944*; get the trans, torque tube, shift rod, shift lever, and a Bronco II clutch disk; remove trans, remove torsion carrier, remove torque tube, install new clutch disk, install replacement torque tube, install old torsion carrier, install trans, etc. (once again, assuming you can get the torsion carrier out);
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Don't forget, these options require converting from cable to hydraulic clutch as well. |
Not when using the Bronco II clutch disk. This conversion provides the necessary larger spline but allows the manual clutch setup to be retained.
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erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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924 FAQ (Technical)
