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MikeDanger
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 774
Location: Denver
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 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:38 am Post subject: Whats the worst that could happen? |
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So as ive done a bit of looking... and cant find much evidence, despite much talk. How delicate our engines are.
I See Other brands, namely Mistubishi guys running 30+ lbs of boost and others such as Srt-4's.
Our engines with the closed deck Iron Blocks, seem more than capable. as Shown by the recent dyno Video Im sure you've all seen.
Now tuning with the Cis and in the early 80's, compared to now was practicaly archaic.
With proper tuning and cooling, why can we turn up the boost?
I just picked up a 24x12x4 intercooler (much better than the 951 intercooler people like to use)
So again, whats the worst that could happen?
Blown headgasket?
I have yet to see any broken pistons, spun bearings and or bent Rods... or really "blown up" motors.
Now as some of you know I will be running the EFI from a Mitsu Eclipse (with onboard tuning software) which has a knock sensor and Also will be using an Visual Knock monitor.
Besides we ONLY have 8:1 compression.
Worse case I blow it and put in the 20v Turbo
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Last edited by MikeDanger on Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Factory racers were getting upwards of 400hp using 70's and 80's tech.
Of course those were fairly high strung and they fixed the cooling before they pushed them hard for the races. They fixed the cooling by reversing the cooling in the engine (cool the head first via the port in the rear of head) and added an external belt driven water pump (possibly from the aviation field)
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
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emoore924
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2822
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| I say go for it. 30psi should be easily achievable. Just please remember to bring the in-car video camera because when it goes bang I really want to see it on youtube. |
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MikeDanger
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 774
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:31 am Post subject: |
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well Im not saying I am going to run 30 psi, but id like to maybe do 20.
but your thinking is exactly the problem. yet you haven't answered the question, typical of the internet. All talk, yet no experice and no facts, no answers....
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeDanger wrote: | | but your thinking is exactly the problem. yet you haven't answered the question, typical of the internet. All talk, yet no experice and no facts, no answers.... |
This is a ridiculously crass and ignorant response directed at one of the more knowledgeable, experienced, and friendly 924 enthusiasts on this board (Mr. Moore).
Apologize, and respond in a more civil manner and I will explain to you why 30PSI is completely irrelevant and a stupid way to look at the challenge. Otherwise, carry on, and be sure to post vids.
(Hint: for starters, go read Maximum Boost cover to cover, and then come back prepared for some civil discourse).
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WEASEL149
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 595
Location: UK, Sheffield
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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3 bar/43.5psi has been done with mechanical injection back in the mid 80's along with billet compressors and twin scroll turbine.
It's all been done before.
Bruce with the 2 x CIS 8 injector Garrett engine ran 32psi.
Dutchpug is running 1.6bar.
Racing ran 2 bar etc. etc.
You're right, there's no reason why the boost shouldn't be turned up if you've prepared properly.
Regarding weaknesses of 931. Top rings have question marks. Cast pistons don't like heat/knock but can be managed.
OEM head gasket needs to be in good condition.
The answers are all here or out there. After-all, the engine is ancient.
Joakim currently runs the highest boost (and highest power) of any 931 when spiking to 1.9bar.
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MikeDanger
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 774
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ill let him speak for himself.
As for you, untill you can show me what you've done, and not just talk I'll put you in that same category.
So thanks for your advice, Mr "you need to buy the factory Special O-ring, or its not gonna work, even though I have no clue about it...."
Oh and I read that book long ago.
thanks for participating!
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WEASEL149
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 595
Location: UK, Sheffield
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Good to see you posting regularly again Mr. Ideola 
Mike, instead of thinking "how much boost can I get away with?", think "how much power/torque can I make per psi of boost?"
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MikeDanger
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 774
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| WEASEL149 wrote: | 3 bar/43.5psi has been done with mechanical injection back in the mid 80's along with billet compressors and twin scroll turbine.
It's all been done before.
Bruce with the 2 x CIS 8 injector Garrett engine ran 32psi.
Dutchpug is running 1.6bar.
Racing ran 2 bar etc. etc.
You're right, there's no reason why the boost shouldn't be turned up if you've prepared properly.
Regarding weaknesses of 931. Top rings have question marks. Cast pistons don't like heat/knock but can be managed.
OEM head gasket needs to be in good condition.
The answers are all here or out there. After-all, the engine is ancient.
Joakim currently runs the highest boost (and highest power) of any 931 when spiking to 1.9bar. |
Yes, exactly. My point being, that I have yet to hear of a really blown up motor. As compared to the 944/51 which I have seen a number.
I actually intend to run the minimum boost possible to reach my power goals,(which really arent that high compared to the "other" 4cyl turbo guys) but if its near 20psi, then it is what it is.
Might add some water/meth injection.
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WEASEL149
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 595
Location: UK, Sheffield
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeDanger wrote: | Ill let him speak for himself.
As for you, untill you can show me what you've done, and not just talk I'll put you in that same category. |
Joakim doesn't waste much time on here and the Swedish have been making colossal power from old cars and truck turbos for years. They're masters at it.
As for me, I'll post what I feel like. I build the car for me, not to prove a point.
Like I said, you're treading a path well-trodden.
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fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like so many internet "tuners" from my days in the Turbo-Dodge and DSM world. All about specific esoteric "numbers" instead of focusing on research and applying scientific methods to reach the limit of their budget and/or hardware.
You can run as much boost as you want and if you have proper fuel, spark, air and thermal management it will actually survive. Since you only want proof from people who have "done it" then perhaps you should go read some of the articles linked on 924.org and here.
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Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
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MikeDanger
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 774
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| WEASEL149 wrote: | | MikeDanger wrote: | Ill let him speak for himself.
As for you, untill you can show me what you've done, and not just talk I'll put you in that same category. |
Joakim doesn't waste much time on here and the Swedish have been making colossal power from old cars and truck turbos for years. They're masters at it.
As for me, I'll post what I feel like. I build the car for me, not to prove a point.
Like I said, you're treading a path well-trodden. |
Oh I wasnt responding to you, I meant Ideola
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MikeDanger
Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 774
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| fiat22turbo wrote: | Sounds like so many internet "tuners" from my days in the Turbo-Dodge and DSM world. All about specific esoteric "numbers" instead of focusing on research and applying scientific methods to reach the limit of their budget and/or hardware.
You can run as much boost as you want and if you have proper fuel, spark, air and thermal management it will actually survive. Since you only want proof from people who have "done it" then perhaps you should go read some of the articles linked on 924.org and here. |
well its not so much the proof, its more the, "why is everyone so scared?"
these motors are alot less scary with EFI, so again, whats the worst that could happen?
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WEASEL149
Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 595
Location: UK, Sheffield
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| fiat22turbo wrote: | Sounds like so many internet "tuners" from my days in the Turbo-Dodge and DSM world. All about specific esoteric "numbers" instead of focusing on research and applying scientific methods to reach the limit of their budget and/or hardware.
You can run as much boost as you want and if you have proper fuel, spark, air and thermal management it will actually survive. Since you only want proof from people who have "done it" then perhaps you should go read some of the articles linked on 924.org and here. |
I can't speak for Mike but most of the last 3 years I've spent on 'research'.
It's a 4 cylinder SOHC 8 valve and in all honesty, is built for boost.
I'm not sure what the point of the thread is.
I would class Joakim's engine as stellar. It's not even finished yet and making over 400hp on pump fuel!
Dutchpug has 352rwhp from a turbo'd NA!
Both are impressive in my book.
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1979 UK 932 |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15550
Location: Spring Lake MI
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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