924Board.org

[TJC]

Recently there has been a discussion in a thread started by Kenodog (Leigh) concerning the "saving" of a 931 shell instead of scrapping it out. I believe good points were made from all sides and understand that passion and emotion sometimes plays a big part in the decision making process as to whether a car is worth restoring or not. It just so happens that I came across this article this morning and I thought I would pass it along:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/everything-is-restorable%e2%80%94even-this-1969-daytona-charger/ar-BBmy7A0?li=AA8mH2&ocid=U142DHP#image=BBmxV7X|1

One of the points that the author makes is when you look at the supposed cost of the project you should take that figure and multiply it by a factor of 4. When I was performing restorations in my shop I would tell my customers that whatever they thought they were planning to spend they should probably double that figure and they might be close...I think 4 times is a bit crazy unless you're a poor estimator! Nevertheless you should always plan on spending a lot more than you think at first, otherwise you will be sorely disappointed when your budget runs out and you find that you're not even halfway done with your project. I think this is one of the main causes of so many unfinished projects even though the owners may have had the best intentions.

Now as to saving every "Rare Bird" that is out there, well that's a subject that is sure to elicit an emotional and passionate discussion isn't it?
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com

[ideola]

When is it worth it? I think there are two pretty basic answers:

1. When the car will SELL for more than the complete cost of acquisition and restoration
OR
2. When the sentimental value of the completed car is worth more to the owner than can be calculated in dollars

In the case of #1, this is clearly what is going on with virtually all 356s, pre-water-cooled 911s, and now even the lowly 914. Even complete basketcase shells are worth saving.

In the case of #2, I think this is pretty much where we are with virtually all 924/944/968/928 models. There are a few exceptional sub-models like the 937, and any of the race cars with real provenance (DProds, GTRs, GTPs, Firehawk, etc.) where #1 clearly applies, but I think it will be another 5-10 years before a general production wasserpumper will fetch more than the cost of proper restoration, and certainly before it makes financial sense to salvage every 924 basketcase shell that turns up on Craigslist.

I think we are on the cusp of turning the corner with valuation for the 924 and especially the 931, but we're not quite there yet. 928s are getting there. 944s and 951s I think are the furthest behind.

I know I will never get the many thousands of dollars back that I've spent on my collection. But I don't care. It is entertainment to me, and I choose to spend my entertainment dollars on my car collection / hobby instead of season tickets to the Red Wings or golfing or boating, etc.

It's worth it to spend the money because I have an attachment to each of my cars, it entertains me, and I derive satisfaction from the end result.

There's also the "retail therapy" aspect of it. My wife buys shoes and clothing and furniture and kitchen implements. I buy tools and car parts. It's entertainment!
_________________
erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made

[Grenadiers]

I think the uptick on air-cooled 911s, are lifting the prices on decent 951s. Had a guy out last summer at the restaurant with a very clean '83 944 in guards red, and was pretty impressed with it. But, as in toofah-land the majority of said vehicles are not of impressive quality.
_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke

[Harm]

[TJC]

[TJC]

And then we have this alternative...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/is-this-restomod-1967-chevrolet-corvette-sacrilege-or-saintly/ar-BBmsesX?li=AA8mH2&ocid=U305DHP

Sacrilege??? Having been intimately involved with Corvettes in the '70s I can say that there are people out there whose heads would explode from this modification...but then, it's not their car is it? This is why I wouldn't have a problem with parting the 951 to make a really cool ( in my mind anyway) 924 CGT or GTS style "Clone" or whatever term makes you feel good...especially if the 951 looks like it may not be worth restoring to original condition.
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com

[Grenadiers]

I like the restomod, and your idea of finding a 924S for the GT clone work. My goal for a long time, was to find an early '60s Jeep Gladiator short-bed pickup, and stuff a four cylinder 4BT 3.9L Cummins Diesel in it, followed by a 727 Dodge automatic, skipping the junk Getrag 5-speeds they made for them. Alas, both truck and engine are beyond my pay grade these days!
_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke

[Rasta Monsta]

I agree 100% that the best use of a basket case 951 is a 924S engine swap.
_________________
Toofah King Bad

• WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

[morghen]

[Kenodog]

My philosophy on the matter may piss some of the purists out the but is simply about economics. In most cities down south or in the EU there is competition for these cars. Where I live, for some strange reason, there is not only an overflowing abundance of them but there are only myself and another 'Board member that actively look for them. Usually the people selling are fairly down to earth and realize the cost and time involved in fixing a car "that just needs a new fuel pump" so they sell the cars at a reasonable price.

If the PO's have neglected and damaged or butchered the car then quite simply it becomes scrap. Pull the saleable parts and have her towed to the crusher.

For my car I want essentially a resto-mod. The cars were 'good' by 70's-early 80's standards but they have so much more potential with a little cash and a little work.



Leigh
_________________
1979 Euro 931, Olive
1981 931, Sabine
1991 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4, Ricky
1996 Ford E-350 ex-FedEx Van
2014 Mazda CX-5 (Kinderwagon)
2019 KTM 790 Adventure
2024 KLX300
2024 KLX140

[Fifty50Plus]

Dave, I put 5 Dodge 727s behind my 440 before I moved to Chevy and Ford products. Worst tranny ever IMO.
_________________
1979 924 NA race car H-Prod SCCA
1982 924 NA race car - Sold
1981 924 Turbo sold
1982 924 Turbo sold
1972 911 E race car - traded for Cayenne Diesel
1975 914 1.8 Building for H-Prod SCCA

[Grenadiers]

Yeah, but as factory option behind Cummins, easier swap for an old guy!
_________________
'83 944 Track car.
'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
2004 Winnebago Vectra monster RV
2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke

[nickthompson]

[Harm]

[Defender405]

I can see both sides of this discussion, I have owned cars that I had way more than they were worth invested in, and sold ones un-repaired which would have been economically feasible to restore. Most of my experience is in Brit cars which ironically have many of the same value issues that the 924 has. It is really easy to spend $4000 on parts to make an MG that you paid $1500 for into a nice driver. Unfortunately when you are done you still have a $3000 car that cost you $5500. It brings a tear to my eye to see an old MGB or Spitfire go to the crusher, but I can totally understand the economics of the decision.
While the 924, at least in my area, is much rarer than any of the Brit roadsters the value is still pretty low. Maintenance and restoration costs on the Porsche are higher, but overall the capabilities of the car make the increased costs worth it to me. With that said though I don't think that I would spend the money to bring a basket case 924 back to life. I'm not a concourse-trailer queen car restoration guy, I just want mine to be a nice sunny day driver type car.
Economics wise, buy what you like and buy the nicest one you can afford/justify and then maintain it properly. A well cared for classic vehicle typically won't kill you in expenses and usually doesn't depreciate away to nothing. I thoroughly enjoy all of my old cars and I do treat their care and feeding as part of my recreation. When the values do finally increase hopefully I will still have my 924, and if I do she will look and run as well as I can make her.
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Its only money, you can always get more.

1979 924 N/A
1975 MGB
1991 Infiniti M30
1987 300ZX Turbo